A couple of AA stalwarts attended the AST meeting last night and since we didn’t get back until late, this brief résumé will serve to start debate rather than be a detailed deconstruction of the proceedings.
First let me say that the attendees were (at least those who spoke) level headed and articulate – but there was plenty of disagreement all the same. The AST is an effective vehicle for access to the club and we are very lucky that we have a CEO in Ivan Gazidis who gives his time to attend open forums as well as having regular private meetings to discuss particular issues (one is taking place this Friday).
I doubt many other CEO’s of top clubs would be so obliging. For this I have to applaud IG. He does not have an easy job having to juggle the conflicting factions of the business – an absentee owner who will not invest, an entrenched Board in dire need of new blood and a manager who is both brilliant and intransigent.
As far as the meeting itself is concerned, there wasn’t a single point made by the presenters or those who spoke that hasn’t been made many times on here over the last few years.
A lot of discussion early on was over the results of their annual survey. I know some supporters suspect that the AST adopt an anti-Wenger stance but this was dispelled by the response to the question asking whether AW should remain as manager which showed 77% in support of Arsène Wenger.
Amongst the many topics discussed, there were two main points that received general agreement at the meeting but that some on here will probably take issue with, and I would like these to form the basis for today’s discussion.
1. It is ridiculous that the Board refuse to meet with Red and White Holdings. Apparently neither Usmanov or his partner Farhad Bashiri have ever been invited into the Boardroom to discuss there intentions as major shareholders. They have never been invited into the Directors box to watch a game (he is currrently purchasing his third private box) or entertained in any way by the Board. They own nearly 1/3 of the club and yet are completely ostracised and this simply would not happen in any other sphere of business. Some kind of dialogue should take place to see if R&W Holdings can contribute to the success of the club whilst still maintaining a self-sustaining business model.
2. The ownership together with the Board are hiding behind FFP simply because they can, and because self-sustainability has been our business model since since moving to the new stadium.
The meeting was attended by accountants, solicitors and people who understand contract law and the belief is that we could be more aggressive in our approach and still comply with FFP.
It was said that the true impact of FFP (if any), extra income from TV rights and the renegotiation of big sponsorship deals are all about 2 years away and the club basically chooses to take the risk of falling out of the top four rather than raise funds to invest in the squad.
The club runs at about a £15m loss annually and this deficit is made up by the profit from the sale of players. There is also a buffer of £30-40m from the sale of players in recent years that is held back in case the club fail to qualify for the CL one season. The feeling was that this money could be invested in the team as the club are likely to be about £70m better off come the 2014/15 season.
FFP is a UEFA policy of some 72 pages and much is left to interpretation and could be easy prey to top lawyers but it does seem already to be affecting the behaviour of clubs although oddly it is the smaller clubs that are likely to be affected the most. Man City were very astute in doing big player deals before the start of the system and continue to exploit it intelligently. Arsenal in contrast appear to be living in the hope that it actually achieves its goals – the general view at the meeting was sceptical that this would actually be the case.
…………………………discuss
Written by Rasp
Arsenal News 24/7
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Most informative and thank you for that. On a relatively minor note could you ask at the next meeting why as a club promoting itself worldwide we have such a poor communication system. Arsenal TV, when Setanta were in business, was excellent but now “Fans Forum” is the only contact for rank and file supporters worldwide. Why can we not compete with ManU, Chelsea, Liverpool etc, ? We do seem like the poor relation
RA (Frome earlier),
Love your answer to my question:
“Mickey,
You borrow £1,000,000 as a mortgage on your home, because you as can afford to pay the interest and repay the loan.
You are a model of financial probity and sustainability.
I borrowed £20 from my mate Jimmy and could not pay him back, partly because I am a rat, and partly because I don’t have any dosh.
I am not financially solvent, nor do I run my affairs on a financially sustainable model. Hsssssss!!”
I guess that is one definition of sustainability. However, shit happens. Many people put down as little as 10% deposits on houses. In Germany you need 50%. Its flexible this sustainability thing 🙂
Off to read post.
Thanks Rasp.
Obviously th meeting was set up sometime ago and questions had been prepared in advance, hence nothing about the RVP situation.
I understand that AST only has 602 members.
This bit “The club runs at about a £15m loss annually and this deficit is made up by the profit from the sale of players. There is also a buffer of £30-40m from the sale of players in recent years that is held back in case the club fail to qualify for the CL one season.” is why I asked earlier how we are one of the richest clubs in the world.
One has to speculate to accumulate and with the shirt deal due for renewal in two years, CL football at the least is the requirement to get the best deal possible.
Hi John,
There are so many questions we’d all like to ask the club. It was made clear last night that we have to respect the time IG gives and be careful not to abuse this as he could easily withdraw and that vital link would be lost.
Membership of the AST is £2 a month and its survey revealed that its members comprise supporters from all levels from STH’s to red members and all walks of life. By joining, you and anybody else will have access to these meetings and will be encouraged to suggest questions that can be put to IG.
What an excellent ‘cobbled together’ report, Rasp. 🙂
Your Post shows no signs of having been cobbled together, and brilliantly outlines two key issues.
Point 1.
It is so self evidently true that the club (Kroenke) needs to establish dialogue with R&W even if it goes no further. I am amazed that hard headed businessmen are behaving the way they are.
In business, talking to your friends is fine, talking to your ‘enemies’ can be very constructive in either finding common ground or understanding what they are up to and mounting a defence.
The old adage — it is better to have a trouble maker inside your tent pissing out, rather than outside your tent pissing in — is so very apt in business.
Point 2.
In many ways this issue follows on from my Post a couple of days ago. The club’s bottom line is dependent on the property income we have enjoyed for the last few years, as well as the profit/surplus on the sale of its assets(Players) to break even.
The property revenue stream is almost at an end, improved commercial income might eventually compensate (though such revenue is usually critically dependent on sporting success) but there is a timing issue with that in any event, so, if we are to continue to break-even on the profit and loss account, the club will need to rely on further profits from player sales, at least in the short term.
Incidentally, the Football League are considering implementing the FFP rules too but already clubs like West ham are threatening to mount a legal challenge to the rules in the Courts, so a decison has been put back. Already it begins.
In addition, any restriction on free movement of labour within the common market could well be challenged by players or clubs affected if UEFA try to restrict player transfers, where a club breaches the break-even requirements of FFP.
The FFP seems a good idea in principle, but as I said 18 months ago, it is just a teddy bears’ picnic for lawyers, or UEFA will roll over if Real Madrid or Manyoo or Barca or Chelsea etc challenge them!
It is a high risk strategy to put such a lot of faith in the implementation of FFP, and risking the club’s future on the vagaries of the legal system and human fallibilities.
Hi kelsey,
No, after the initial discussion on the results of the fan survey, the discussion soon turned to the RvP situation.
There were people at the meeting who do actually know what goes on at Arsenal … and I mean KNOW.
Yes RvP told AW and IG at the pre Euro meeting that he wasn’t going to sign a new contract despite being offered by far the best deal Arsenal have ever put on the table to a player £150k a week.
That was the best the club was prepared to offer and I think personally that it was enough.
RvP agreed to keep the outcome of the meeting private to give the club time to source new players whilst still in a strong negotiating position = the selling clubs being unaware of our level of need and that we would be receiving decent money for RvP.
Unfortunately, even after Giroud was signed, the club continued to give out messages that RvP realised were not in his best interest so he released a statement calculated to make sure the club wouldn’t be able to keep hold of him.
Morning RA,
I felt quite guilty writing this post because I am well aware that you have previously made the same points in greater detail and without the benefit of listening to the views of other well informed parties. Your perception of these issues has been spot on.
There were several guys there who, like you, have dissected the minutiae of the detail of FFP. It really is an extraordinary document. At no time does it state that a club cannot be run at a loss. You can run at a loss year on year and not contravene FFP …. bizarre
Hi Rasp, thanks for a very good update. 🙂
I have a couple of questions:
1) Is it generally accepted within the AST that the major shareholders are NOT taking large sums of money out of the club at the moment?
2) Do the members of the AST have a lot of trust in Usmanov’s intentions – do they believe if he had the majority of the shares he would pump a lot of his own money in without wanting it back any more/ putting large sums of debt on our books?
3) Do you sense that if Usmanov had such a charitable approach to running our club, the members of the AST would want us to ditch the sustainable model in order to compete with the other Oilers?
Morning TA, taking your points in order:
1. They do not believe shareholders are taking vast sums of money out of the club.
2. I get the impression that most are suspicious Usamov’s intentions but that it is verging on childish that the Board have not got round the table with him to at least give him the opportunity to speak for himself.
3. No. In answer to the question in the survey ‘Do you think Stan Kroenke should invite R&W Holdings to be reperesented on the Board?’ 82% voted yes. I can’t remember anyone at the meeting suggesting that it would be a good idea to allow Usamov to inject money into the club as it was generally accepted that such a loan would come with ‘strings’ that would not be in the best interest of Arsenal.
Rasp, thanks those answers are very clear.
The question of a rights issue was raised several times. Under FFP, the money raised from a rights issue could not be spent on players but could be spent on infrastructure. Unfortunately we’ve already built the new training ground and stadium and the penalties incurred by early repayment of the mortgage on the Ems are so heavy that it would be pointless.
Rasp,
I wonder how much of the feelings expressed by AST gets back to Kroenke?
The fact that so many fans are spilt in their opinions over critical issues, rather tends to diminish rather than to further the impact of their concerns over the future of the club.
Morning, TA 🙂
Rasp,
Desperate to join in on this one and there’s no room for the simple “one liner”, so I’ll be back later. Thanks.
Final question Rasp:
Was there any believe amongst the AST-ers that RvP could still sign a new contract, or at least finish his contract in a cooperative way? Or does everybody want RvP to leave asap because he burnt all his bridges last week?
Before I go, and to help my cogitations, is it possible for Fatso to aquire the shares he needs without SK selling any? Are there enough floaters in circulation?
Hi RA, this survey is an annual event and last year IG said that he would report the findings to the Board.
The general impression I got was that people believe that Kroenke wouldn’t be the slightest bit interested in the survey or pretty much anything else that concerns supporters. He’s bought into a very well run and successful business and is happy to sit back and watch the value of his investmnent grow (paradoxically mainly due to Usamov mopping up shares).
I think it wouuld take some heavy operating losses and reduction in share value before Stan attempted any intervention. At this particular time, he doesn’t need to do anything.
Morning RA – if I am right Tuesday is your ‘procedure’ day, and if so, I hope all will be as comfortable as possible for you! 🙂
TotAl, no RvP is gone. We’ve offered the maximum we’re prepared and he’s rejected it. He’s burnt his bridges.
Several suggested that if he hasn’t been sold, he will develop a ‘hamstring problem’ that excludes him from training and friendlies. The danger is that no-one we’d want to sell him to will stump up the money and he will go to City if they manage to offload Dzeko – worse still no-one makes an offer that is acceptable.
Hi Micky, I don’t believe there are enough floating shares out there to get Usamov over the threshold, but I also seem to remember that they have changed the rules in relation to ownership of football clubs and so 30% + wouldn’t actually afford him the right to a place on the Board or to mmake an offer for the club …. someone help me out here
Rasp, it looks like there is plenty of interest in him at the moment. I am convinced he has eyes on Juve but they have already spent a lot of money and will try to get him on the cheap. I really cannot see him go to MC, but what do I know?! 😛
TA, we were asked for a show of hands to say whether we’d rather sell him to city (or any other English club) for say £20m or to a foreign club (Juve?) for £5m less …. surprisingly th result was 50/50. I voted to sell him abroad obviously 😕
Super stuff Rasp
All the complicated running`s of a business and FFP are way way over my head. I have said I will give It another 4 years to see whether FFP works, so to hear you say, they expect some impact in 2 years is good news by me, but from reading your post and some of the comments I`m wavering again and dropped to side of pessimism again.
I`d love everything to be equal on a level playing field , but will It happen ?.
I dont care much who owns the club, I just want us to compete.
What ever you think of the characters , I think It Is ridiculous that Uzzy has not been invited, as Redders said, Keep your friends closer and your enemies even closer.
I dont care what people think of Usmanov, as far as I`m concerned, he said he`s a fan, which Is better than Gazidas, who probably attends meeting`s wearing a City shirt beneath his suit !. 🙂
One last point. The wage structure was discussed and it was unanimously acknowledged that the ‘parity policy’ had to go and IG said as much at the fans forum months ago.
Unfortunately IG wasn’t able to put this flawed policy to bed earlier in his tenure……. Chamakh is on £70k a week and van Persie is on £80k a week. I know Chamakh came on a free, but that is ridiculous.
Morning all. Thanks for a good write up Rasp.
I believe that RVP has agreed terms with City and will go nowhere else, it would appear that the club are prepared to sell Adabarndoor to the spuds for a ridiculous fee in order to facilitate this, knowing the bad blood between them.
As for R and W I can see no point in having them on the board, they are minority shareholders and as such of no consequence, Words are cheap and as Rasp has outlined a rights issue is smoke and mirrors because it would not be possible to use the moneys for players which is what R and W have outlined as the point of doing it. Given that AW received an overwhelming endorsement from the survey’s results, It would seem to me that to carry on with present policy, provide the football we enjoy, carry on rebuilding and practice sustainability is the wish of of the majority of fans.
Hi glic, I’ve been a critic of IG, mainly due to his slick and rather obvious PR, but I have to say I gained a lot of respect for him after hearing the difficulties under which he hjas to operate.
As I said in the post that he somehow has to try to satisfy the requirements of an absentee owner who has very little interest in the running of the club and will not inject money, a BoD that is rooted in the past, a manager who is completely focused on one way only and the supporters who are becoming increasingly frustrated.
Hi dandan, yes City will need to offload either Ade or Dzeko (or both) to be able to buy RvP, but I agree that is the most likely scenario.
Rasp, 50/50 is indeed very surprising. Just to have to watch him week in week out in the PL would turn my stomach.
Chamakh just did not work out Rasp, otherwise it would have been an acceptable salary. RvP’s is simply too low, but he did not want to talk about a better contract at the start of last season, so I cannot feel too sorry about that.
dandan, the rights issue generally means that the new shares made available have to be offered to existing shareholders proportionate to their existing holding = 66% to Kroenke, 29% to Usamov etc, so it wouldn’t necessarily affect the balance of power.
As you say, it is smoke and mirrors and wouldn’t be spent on players unless some creative accounting enabled it to be juggled in some way.
Total no doubt RVP has known for some time his future destination and city are surely prepared to recompense him for his patience
Rasp,
I fancy the difference between a City sale or a Foreign sale would be greater than £5m. For me, Id take the extra wonga. Also, the closer to home the slimy toad is, the easier to mock and taunt. He will be nothing like the player at City that he was this season at The Arsenal.
Hi TA, I don’t think Chamakh should have been valued at anywhere near £70k a week based on his history and performance before he joined us. Once again we were investing in potential rather than rewarding results.
I hope the early new contract being offered to kozzer is a case of us rewarding results and that policy will prevail from now on.
Sorry without any business experience, I am naive and uninformed. Hopefully someone can explain why it is desirable to invite Usamov “into the Boardroom” to discuss his intentions.
What does an invitation into the Boardroom allow Usamov to do, that he couldn’t do without one. Does he need an appearance in the Boardroom to vote his share or voice his opinion? Is this more “courtesy”?
Also, would this meeting be conducted publicly? If it were private, could the content of the discussion still be made public afterwards? Are there confidentially constraints?
I guess in my mind, with all the public nastiness already out there because of this RvP situation, I would hate to open up another contentious issue right now. (I’m working on the assumption that the Board and Usamov have serious disagreement and will not suddenly agree with each other.)
Rasp
By your reply to dandan, that must mean FFP is working !. With all their massive wealth, they have off load a player or two to buy Judas !.
I feel a lot better now. 🙂
Micky 😛 well there you go, we’re 50/50 on this site too. It is a fact that there are issues where there is no right or wrong, just different opinions.
I’m with TA, I’d hate to be playing against RvP in the Prem.
I’m with dandan of the fatty on the board issue.
He is an irrelevance where he is. What good can possibly come by him having a say?
Hi TT, you are making some valid points.
Hi dandan 🙂
I just cannot see him choosing that path: any titles he might win will become historically meaningless. But I also never thought he would put the knife into our club as he did last week.
Are you and your wife fully recovered now?
Hi TT,
There is an old saying…. ‘ keep your friends close and your enemies closer still’.
It makes complete sense to at least talk to R&W Holdings to understand where they are coming from and to see if they can add anything to the running of the club (apart from their share ownership).
How would you feel if you bought 30% of a business and that business would not speak to you or let you onto the property?
I don’t have any warm feelings towards Usamov but I do know that talking is good and if the Board contnue to exclude him from any involvement in the club, he is likely to become more subversive.
Just imagine if one day Kroenke decides to take the money and run and sell to Usamov (it could easily happen), I’d like to see the faces of the Board members when he calls them in for a meeting.
Tanks supporter,let them know we are not happy with the way our darling club is been runned in this 21st century.
Hi Total. I would be astonished should he go anywhere else. The modus operandi is well established and Barca it would seem are not interested in this instance, That leaves only city
Hi glic, yes FFP is already changing the way clubs operate. What we haven’t seen yet is how stringently UEFA will punish anyone who breaks the rules. The punishments range form small fines to exclusion from competitions. At some stage there will be a stalemate and if UEFA back down, then the whole policy could disintegrate.
One possible outcome of trying to penalise the big teams could be the formation of a breakaway Eurpean Super League and UEFA would not want that.
Hi Total, Thanks for your interest in our health, we are having a stair lift fitted this weekend for my wife and the two ribs I broke when I fell, are the quack tells me, half way to knitting together, I am still sleeping on my electric settee, the angle of the dangle makes a difference it seems 🙂
Unfortunately it has meant cancelling our driving holiday in Canada and the States. We have booked to do it on a cruise liner instead now.
Hi Rasp,
That’s where I’m confused. I thought that as any shareholder, Usamov would have votes in any issues that the Board put forth to shareholders. His vote would just be weighed according to the shares he own of course. So he should be fairly represented no?
I’m also assuming we’re talking about a one-off appearance in front of the Board? Not an on-going presence? I mean… not all shareholders should be present in Board meetings, surely. Granted he’s a big shareholder, but still he’s in the minority. If it were policy to grant big shareholder a seat on the Board, Usamov would have exercised his rights already.
As there is presumably no such rights, I interpret the appearance request as a “courtesy” toward a very large shareholder. (Sorry for the pun.) If this is an opportunity to “present his views”, I would suggest the Board already has a detailed understanding of Usamov proposals. I mean, he’s sent an open letter already! 🙂
Jokes aside, I’m suggesting that things should be done privately and confidentially for the good of Arsenal.
Hi Glicster, 🙂
If it is true Citeh are trying to offload Barndoor and Dzecko, it is more likely to do with the Home grown Player policy, limiting the squad to a maximum of 17 Non-Home Grown players.
At the moment, the transitional or Monitoring Period of the FFP allows clubs to make good any losses up to Euros 45m by injecting shareholder cash. Let’s face it the Sheikh does not seem to concern himself with petty cash like that.
Frankly it would also be good accounts housekeeping to remove their ‘deadwood’. Don’t our fans say that all the time? 🙂
Thanks TT,
I understand Usamov has requested to have meetings, to be able to see accounts etc etc for several years now and those requests have always been refused.
As I said earlier, he is likely to become more subversive the more he is kept out of the loop. He has tried the ‘business-like way’ and now appears to be resorting to more blunt means and it is not good for the club for the business world to see the 2 main shareholders at loggerheads.
Therefore I agree that things should be done privately and a once a month meeting with a representative from R&W Holdings or something similar to discuss the direction Arsenal are going in would not be so terrible would it?
Hi dandan, good to hear there has been progress and hope you’ll enjoy the cruise 🙂
Thanks Rasp, much appreciated.
As a life member of the AST, I used to attend their meetings but have let that slip. I’ve fallen out of love with them a bit in recent times, not so much because I think they’re anti-Wenger but more because they seem to have become victims of mission creep in the last year or two. The AST exists to promote the interests of supporters who own shares in the Club, facilitate supporter involvement in the Club and promote mutual supporter ownership, all of which I think is great. But more and more their public pronouncements (journos are fond of contacting them) have gone to issues beyond ownership. We all have views on transfer policies etc but I don’t like it when an organisation I’ve given money to for one purpose starts saying things about the football side that I don’t agree with.
All of that said, it’s still a good organisation, made relevant by the fact the Club engages with it seriously and regularly.
On the points you refer to:
1. R&W should have a board member – that might make life less comfortable for Kroenke, since Usmanov would have access to much more information about the Club, but I don’t really care about Kroenke or Usmanov, just what helps the Club to develop the football side in the best way. And public bickering amongst the owners doesn’t help that.
2. Without seeing all the information, it’s hard to say whether the Club could do more within the bounds of FFP. There is an inconsistency in the AST having said (as it has for quite a long time) that the Club has too big a wage-bill and insufficient commercial income (due to the need to sign long-term deals before financing the stadium) and the suggestion it can be more aggressive about spending. I’d be open-minded about the owners investing more money (by way of a rights issue or shareholder loans), but ultimately I want the Club to maintain sustainability, partly because that’s the right way of operating and partly for reasons of future security. Are the owners hiding behind FFP? Very easy to say, impossible to verify from the outside.
A word on the FFP Rules. I have read the whole document, and wouldn’t accept that it is littered with loopholes – but (as with many bodies of law) much is left to interpretation, so to be effective it needs to be enforced with intelligence and fortitude. Man City are gambling that they will be able to convince the UEFA panel to use its discretion in its favour, Arsenal are not. If City are refused entry to the Champions’ League, we’ll know whether their gamble has paid off. But even without knowing how the UEFA panel is going to interpret aspects of the FFP Rules, what we can already see is that FFP is affecting behaviour (e.g. City have to sell before they can buy this summer, not because the Abu Dhabi Government doesn’t have the cash but because they need to start trying to balance the books a bit).
You beat me to it TotAl,
Bon voyage dandan Mr and Mrs, may you dine at the Captain’s table every night 🙂
Thank you Rasp. I wasnt aware you were a member of AST, its good to know someone who attends these meetings, so thanks once again.
On the points you have raised i must admit that there is nothing new in them. People still fail to understand FFP. They tend to focus on the intricacys of the document were as the reality is that it is a persuasive document based on compromise which is already effecting clubs strategies.
I do not accept that the Club is hiding behind FFP. Possibly puting to much faith in it yes, because its effects are yet to be determned.
I also take issue with the Club running an annual loss of £15 million before transfers. a quick glance at the Clubs Accounts for the last five years and you will see this is not correct.
The question of a rights issue is redundent. If we were to go this way it should have happened three years ago, not now when FFP is kicking in and new comercial deals are round the corner.
I totaly agree with you about the lack of dialouge between Kronke and Usmanov. Disgraceful.
Kelsey, why are Arsenal one of the richest clubs in the world?, because of the vaule of the shares. in other words both Usmanov and Kronke know the hugh potential of the club and are prepared to pay top dollor for there equity. This is a positive, both men know success is just round the corner. Keep the faith.
If we can finish 3rd, 19 points behind United and City, without spending the extra funds, then what incentive is there for the club to be more aggressive and spend these extra funds? After all, if we spend £40m, City can just go out and spend £100m.
Now I know this doesn’t show much ambition, but sometimes it can be a better strategy to bide your time and wait for others to make the mistakes. Maybe the club is of the opinion that the impact of these sugar daddies is short term (Chelsea finished 6th last season) and that staying prudent now could show big rewards in the future.
Thanks 26m, the ‘littered with loopholes’ was my phrase (one which I now regret) and not one that emanated from the meeting.
The lawyers present, like yourself, did not portray it in that way. What they did say was that there was scope to challenge the legislation and they expected that to happen at some stage.
I think the main thrust was the assertion that the club was conveniently hiding behind FFP when it could invest some of the money it currently has in the squad – the £40 cushion fund for instance. Or even, borrow a small amount in the knowledge that we are likely to be around £70m PA better off in a couple of years.
Only time will tell, but if we fail to get into the CL next season and that £40m is swallowed up, we will rightlly be accused of a lack of ambition.
Hi TMHT, I am not an accountant, but you are one of the few accountants that do not recognise that without player sales we average about a £15m operational loss. I cannnot argue the case with you, but there are others on here that acknowledge the deficit.
Hi SGG, are you forgetting how close we were to finishing 4th and the ramifications of that ….. we were lucky last season, I’d like to make our own luck next.
Rasp,
I wrote a comment on your earlier point about 10 days ago. And as you have asked, I can repeat it for you.
Paraphrasing: The Premier league rules insisted that any shareholding with a 30% stock holding was entitled to a seat on the Board of Directors. This is not a companies Act requirement.
Having a seat on the board means he would become a director.
The reasoning behind this was to ensure transparency and clarity on all boardroom decisions, so nothing was being done behind a screen of ‘smoke and mirrors’.
All the directors are bound by a code of strict confidentiality, and where there have been cases of directors breaching this, they have summarily been dismissed. David Dein, perhaps, among many others?
I have no problems, with a director ‘riding shotgun’ and ensuring everything is above board and Bristol fashion.
This Premier League requirement has been quietly dropped (football political machinations at work?) and Usmanov, in Arsenal’s case, is no longer entitled to become a director via this route.
TT, you appear slightly confused.
The Arsenal Board will simply not talk to Usmanov or enter into correspondence to discuss a mutually desirable way forward.
Talking has nothing to do with offering him a directorship.
It is not sensible to allow things to deteriorate to the level that both parties resort to megaphone discussions through ‘open letters’ or behind the scenes ‘briefings’ to the media.
This ‘talking’ to someone in business, is tantamount to the more prosaic circumstance where a husband and wife cannot get on.
Instead of one, or both, simply flouncing out on the other, what normally happens is that they discuss their differences first to see if there is an amicable solution.
If there is — all well and good. If there is not — then they have done their best and divorce would become the last resort – not the first.
Hi Rasp, how are with regards to posts this week?
Thanks RA, what would I do without you? 😛
Hi TotAl, we’ve got a couple and one scheduled specifically for Thursday – but we can never have too many so don’t hold back!
Operating profit from football excluding players transfers
2011 £45.8 million
2010 £56.8 million
2009 £62.7 million
I guess one other dimension to take into account re FFP, is that even though the restrictions and/or sanctions associated with it might be challenged legally in the future, the cultural change it is likely to establish, could mean that clubs would not want to go there, for fear of bad publicity/ becoming pariahs.
It is still amazes me how MC is ethically/ in terms of publicity, getting away with making a loss of £197,000,000 last year, a loss of £22,000,000 per football month.
Thanks Rasp. I hope discussions can be held privately too.
As I’ve confessed, not knowing enough about the business side of a football club leaves me stranded, guided by only a few news and blog articles and some rudimentary inferences based on “facts” presented therein. I’m not sure what steps the two sides have taken to hear each other out, and why things have come to this point. I just see disaster coming if Usamov continues his public campaign to gain a voice. It’s perfectly within his rights to do so, of course, and perhaps an opportune time too. Just not helpful for Arsenal at the moment.
As I said TMHT, I do not have the knowledge to argue this point with you, but I’d be interested to know where the £165.3m you suggest we’ve made in the last 3 years is hiding away?
If it includes player sales but not purchases we’d still have a tidy sum as we haven’t spent anywhere near that amount.
I’m with you on that TT, I can’t see how anything bad can come from just talking to R&W Holdings.
Secretly Kroenke must be delighted with the way Usamov has inflated the value of his shares and maybe he thinks that by riling him he’ll just make him more determined and the price will rise even further. As I said above, Kroenke doesn’t have to do anything except sit back while things are the way they are.
Thanks RA. Indeed, I guessed there is a breakdown between the Board and Usamov, although I don’t know why. I assume there is nothing to force the Board to listen to Usamov, and for some reason, it has taken this stance. Equally, I assume Usamov has found no way to change the Board’s stance, so he’s resorting to public opinion.
Hope it can be resolved privately, but if it can’t, I would say let’s try to leave the issue aside for another time.
… I realize too that I should heed my own advice… so I’ll stop now, except for posting whatever courtesy response as required.
Rasp, after loan repayments and taxation the operating profit from football is reduced but still in surplus. It is my understanding without looking at the figures only one year from the last five there has been a loss.
I am not having a poke at you but the notion that the club runs at annual loss of £15 million per year before transfers is simply incorrect.
Terry, 🙂
I could not be arsed to go back into previous years accounts, again, but taking the interim accounts up until November 2011 instead so that we will not fall out, 🙂 you will find that;
Profit before Tax for the 6 months to Nov 2011 = £49.5 million
Contribution from sale of players during the period = £63 million
By deduction, if the player sales had not occurred the Loss for the 6 months period would be (£49.5m – £63m) = £13.5 million.
I think you would find a similar contribution from player sales over the last few accounting years allowing for fluctuations and timing differences.
More worrying for me is that Arsenal’s property income peaked in 2010 at approx £157 million. That is now dropping like a stone as the property project is would up.
Other commercial revenues are going to have to improve exponentially to make good that drop in income.
Anyway, where’s GIE, the accounting stats man?? 🙂
“wound up” not “would up” 🙂 Too many errant fingerz!
TMHT, could you wait and see what kelsey, 26m and RA have to say in response to your view of the balance sheet.
The meeting last night took place in the very plush offices of Nabarro in Holborn and was attended by and addressed by several qualified accountants. Now I’m not saying you’re not a fantastic accountant, just that they interpretted the figures differently to you and others on here have said the same thing so I’m afraid I’m going to take a lot more convincing.
I would not get wound up about RA; a RAre typing error makes you a little bit more human. Think an air-shot by DB10! 😛
*about it
TT,
You comment away. You have made a valid point and it is important to discuss it. That’s what blogging is all about surely? 🙂
Most of us seem to agree with Churchill that “jaw, jaw is better than war, war”, and that goes for the competing factions among the shareholders, and on AA too! 🙂
Redders, please look at the year end figures. The interim accounts are skewed because of timing diferences.
Rasp, fair enough. if Redders, GiE, 26, etc look at the figures and show me that the football side of our activities operates at a £15 million loss before transfers then i will accept ime incorrect
Rasp, true about Kroenke reaping the short term benefits of Usamov purchases. If it’s to be believed, however, Kroenke is a long term investor.
Thanks, RA. You are right, AA is always such a welcoming blog, and the interaction fostered here is what makes it special to me. I would be happy to discuss the points I’ve made of course. I’m just not going to flog it anymore than I’ve already done 🙂
TA, my handsome Dutch maestro. 🙂 🙂
I missed your comment earlier, and haven’t thanked you for it.
My schedule at the hospital was moved up to Monday this week.
Which is why I was taking it easy yesterday and only spoke to the Rasper” 🙂
Anyway, who said I was human? 🙄
For what it’s worth (I’m no accountant), my understanding was that the Club had an operating profit on the football side (before taking account of player trading). So I’d be on Terry’s side of the equation, the Club makes a profit, not a loss, on football side.
But as with any figures, you’d need to be clear you’re comparing apples with apples to be sure the right point is being made.
Totaly correct 26. The net profits are reduced when player amortization, loan interest and taxation is added to the equation but they are profits never the less.
I’m wondering why it has become established fact that the board have not had any discussions with R&W at all. As far as I’m aware, the only bit of evidence that this is so, is the R&W letter itself.
I think it’s wrong to argue that we are hiding behind the FFP. As far as I know, we were following a policy of spending no more than we earn well before the concept of FFP was thought up. You could even argue that Arsenal operating fairly successfully under that model, especially in sharp contrast to the spend spend spend model, made the perils of the latter, and the viability of our model become an issue for football to discuss.
As for whether FFP will be successful. For years I was of the opinion, that it won’t. There is no way Uefa will ban the likes of ManU, Chelsea, Madrid etc from the UCL because that would cut into their own revenues. However, I think most clubs realise that they can’t compete with the likes of City, and so they will throw their weight behind it. We think of clubs punished by FFP having too much power over Uefa, and to an extent this is true. But think of all the other clubs who would want that the rules be upheld, and they have a far greater voice to see that THEIR interests are not harmed by Uefa giving the sugar daddies a free pass.
In any case, regardless of FFP. I do not want to abandon the self sustaining model. It makes sense to spend according to your means. The risks of the other model, far outweigh any benefits.
Hi again TMHT, forget all the accountant speak … isn’t the bottom line that we generally average at about a £15m loss taking everything into consideration and excluding profit from player sales 🙂
Hi Shard,
The unanimous view at the meeting was that the self-sustaining model had to be adhered to. The discussion was all along the lines as to how we could maximise our resources within that system.
The juggernaut of player wages cannot be stopped instantly and it will take about another 3 years until all the players who are considered overpaid will be off our hands unless sold in the meantime.
One small moment of mirth last night came when discussing the phrasing that the club had ‘released Manuel Almunia’. In truth, M A squeezed every last penny out of his £60k a week contract and we were powerless to do anything about it as we are witth a couple of existing players.
Man City seem to be employing a more constructive approach to moving on players who are being paid above the level that prospective purchasers can afford. The buying clubs will benefit as a result.
There is no way that totnum can match the £180k a week Ade is getting but it appears a deal has been done … I await with interest to see how they’ve achieved that.
Ime afraid not Rasp. There are profits, but not particulary large once you take into account loan interest and player amortisation.
I dont wish to appear arrogant, i realy appreciate you going to that meeting and giving as the feedback.
Well TMHT, you’ll just have to battle that one out with other accountants then. If I decided to make my mind up based on which side the majority of accountants agree, it would be in favour of the £15m loss as you’re the only one who has said otherwise. Hopefully something definitive will be available to settle the matter.
Sky are saying RVP is not all it seems and he may stay,???????
Interesting stuff on sky sports saying that RvP could yet stay. They are likening it to the Rooney situation a couple of seasons ago when he said he wouldn’t sign.
DD,
What did you make of that?
It does seem strange that he would consider moves to the likes of Juve. Maybe he is just trying to push the board into more signings and a better offer?
Rasp, some interesting profit/loss numbers in this article, which admittedly is more about RvP than about the business of football.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/bobbymcmahon/2012/07/09/van-persie-arsenal-and-the-usual-suspects/
I’m surprised how “low” Arsenal is on wages. Arsenal revenue is just behind Chelsea, but still a long way from ManU. The list is quite selective however, and only shows 2011.
Slim I cant get past City I am afraid mate, think its a done deal
dandan/SGG,
When discussing RvP it was said that the power transfers into the hands of any top player if the club allow them to get into the last 2 years of a contract. Gazidis himself sad that in this day and age you cannot keep a player who wants to leave.
The truth is that far fewer clubs have shown interest in RvP than he or his agent expected. He may have to stay because no-one wants to buy him or simply because the best offer is just too low.
The effect on morale in the dressing room would be a disaster if he stayed simply because a buyer could not be found.
Figures quoted from American sport last night illustrated what they call pre-contract performance. Statistically player performance is better in the year prior to contract negotiations than say in the first two years after signing a new contract …. I wonder why?
This has gone way above me whem RA and TMHT both say that Arsenal are one of the richest club based on the share value.
What does it really mean in a football sense.
If one of the Qatar many, suddely offered Kroenke or usmanov or both a 50% return on their shares Arsenal would be the richest club in the world but it has absolutely nothing to do with achievement on the football field.
Could be like Rooney, a double bluff. Word has it SAF and Rooney were in it together.
Agree with most of that except the performance one, fitness and assists in Cesc’s absence had much to do with that.
I agree with most of that Rasp, we all witnessed Flamini turn into a top class midfield general in his final season!
There are parts of me that would love RvP to stay, but on the other hand I think it would be good to get 3 forwards who can share goals, rather than relying on one player. I think the dressing room depends on what the truth is, after all, we dont really know what the true motives are for Robin. I’m sure players know more than us, no matter what they say in the press.
I can’t see what scope there is for criticising Manuel Almunia (if that’s what AST members did). All he did was comply with the terms of his contract.
And I also don’t see that much scope for criticising the Club. There was a very good reason for the wages policy that was adopted when the stadium financing began: to achieve squad stability. The Club realised even then that it would not be able to compete financially for a while, and to avoid having to go into the transfer market without much money to spend, it chose to use what resources it had to pay the players well and incentivise them to stay. Almunia may not be worth £60k a week (cue the jokes….), but it would have cost much more to have replaced him if we paid him half that only for him to leave. Multiply that across the squad (which was dominated by youngsters) and you see the reason for the policy during the stadium financing phase.
We’re out of that phase now, which is why a very different approach can be taken (hence the suggestion of van Persie being offered +£150k per week plus a massive “loyalty” (ha ha!) bonus).
Rasp, oops! I’ve been propagating the wrong spelling of “Usamov”. It should be Usmanov!
There was no criticism of Almunia 26m, just a bit of fun at the expense of Arsenal as the term ‘released from his contract’ implied that the club had any option in the matter. He had a contract and saw it through – nothing wrong in that. In fairness ‘released from contract’ is common parlance for the process.
TT…. double oops, I’ve been doing the same 😦
This RVP situation is getting murkier…reports today stating that he might do a ‘Rooney’ (xcept shagging a grandmother) 😀
Hoping that everything ,involving transfers are completed by this week and we get ready to rumble for the preseason friendlies \m/
Fair enough Rasp!
I’ve been waiting for this “doing a Rooney” thing to emerge in relation to RvP – perhaps that’s what will happen, I don’t know, but it would be interesting to see how things play out. The United fans were craven in their forgiveness of Rooney after he threatened to follow the cash/ambition (delete as appropriate); would we do the same? I wouldn’t, but there may well be plenty who might.
With regard to the Usmanov situation, surely it would be better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in!
I really can’t see how van Persie can stay at Arsenal after his statement, how can he possibly have any credibility left if he backs down on his comments, takes a pay rise and signs a new contract?
Superb conversation starting post and some very enlightening comments.
I am keeping a low profile today as I am pretty much out of my depth.
Ah, a football window.
I think it is correct to say that Rooney did not criticise manu while threatening to leave. This is the huge difference between RvP and the Granny Shagger.
As to whether the Rooney will he, won’t he leave thing was orchestrated? Damn right it was. We have done it so many times with Wenger to the point now where him staying at Arsenal is pretty much taken for granted.
I have to say that if RvP was not able to find another club which is possible I suppose I would welcome him back, sorry I am a big softy at heart.
The thing I would add to the Rooney charade was that city were not quite as established as they are today, so I remain of the view that if Rooney came onto the market today he would be wearing light-blue and white and not red, black and white at the beginning of the coming season.
Hi London, I think Shrek did have a pop at ManUre, and in quite a similar fashion to the way in which Robin did : “”I met with David Gill [United chief executive] last week and he did not give me any of the assurances I was seeking about the future squad,” Rooney confirms.
“I then told him that I would not be signing a new contract.”
Rooney also admitted he was shocked by Ferguson’s comments on Tuesday, adding: “I was interested to hear what Sir Alex had to say yesterday and surprised by some of it.
“It is absolutely true, as he said, that my agent and I have had a number of meetings with the club about a new contract. During those meetings in August I asked for assurances about the continued ability of the club to attract the top players in the world.”
Sounds quite similar to me.
Hi Chary
Interesting stuff.
Agreed London, who knows what is going on behind closing doors at AFC though. It’s got me baffed.
And thanks for the heads up on the AST meet last night Raspers.
No-one surely would assume that AW would be complicit with RvP over this. Maybe the Rooney situation was past of a cunning plan but I can’t see it being true with RvP.
Hi chary, I’d heard a lot about the AST and wanted to judge for myself how effective they were as a mouthpiece for supporters. I was impressed generally although I thought one or two comments from the floor were rather naive.
At the end of the day i hope he stays. We dont have to like him. As long as he performs and there are no ripple effects of this saga then its ok with me.
Ok, some more lovely figures for you to ponder. Go on, admit it you are all anxious to see them.
The unkindest way at looking at Arsenals footballing profit before transfers as possible, i.e. including depreciation and loan interest.
2011 £4,866 million loss
2010 £6,631 million profit
2009 £16,302 million profit
2008 £12,772 million profit
If anyone is interested, go to the segmental analysis note of the accounts and take away the finance charges from the the operating profit.
I must state that i am not posting this to prove a point or to get some from of response from Rasp, of who i have utmost respect. It is just that i do not want peiole to go away thinking that without selling players, Arsenal would make losses of around £15 million per year. This implies we have to sell, and we do not.
Rasp, from Chary’s 4.01
“who knows what is going on behind closing doors at AFC though. It’s got me baffled” me too!.
I wonder how they compare with AISA, with their views on the ownership issue, Raspers.
They are obviously a sample of the Arsenal support but the question is how representative are they ?
Don’t ask me, I don’t have a scooby. 🙂
Terry,
Sorry, I was called away and have only just got back to answer your earlier point.
Sorry, but I cannot speak to the profit figures you show at 12:15 pm, as I do not recognize them.
I would prefer not to get into a boring accounting argument, but as you are questioning me, I have to make an effort to respond.
I have already given you the 6 months interim figures to Nov 2011, which speak for themselves and support the point reported by Rasp.
The Audited Accounts for the year to 31st May 2011 show;
Footballing Profit (Loss) = £(4.1m)
Player Sales amounting to = £6.3m
Therefore the combined “football” Profit (-£4.1m + £6.3m) = £2.2m
So, without the Player sales, the football part of the business made a £4.1m loss.
The Group Accounts for 2011, of course, will show that combined football profit (£2.2m) + the profit on property sales of (£12.6m), gave a total Group Profit for the year of £14.8m, before taxation.
In the Audited Accounts for the previous year (2010) there was a small football profit of £6.7m and a whopping player sale profit of £38.1m. (Barndoor and Toure?).
The Group Accounts for 2010 show; football profit (£6.7m) + Player sales (£38.1m) + Property sale profits (£11.2m) = Total Group profits before tax = £56m.
Taking the two years together, the audited accounts show that the “football operation” overall made a tiny profit of £2.6m, and barely broke even, while player sales came to a massive £44.4m.
Basically, without the player sales, and the almost finished property sale profits, the club are potentially skating on thin ice, unless there is a substantial increase in commercial revenues, or player sales continue.
I presume you are referring to the Cash Flow Statement calculation when you mentioned you were excluding the non-cash items, such as amortization and asset depreciation, but although that is an important factor in arriving at liquidity, which is Balance Sheet related, it will completely confuse non-accountants as to how that calculation is arrived at, so is best ignored for the purpose of this discussion
I do not want to get any deeper into this, so, if you will forgive me, I have said all I am going to on the subject. 🙂
I think we need a Glic interpretation of the above!! 🙂
Thanks Redders, as i said the interim accounts are skewed, 6 months only. I tend to agree with the small profit, break even that you portray. But £15 million losses on average for the last few years is simply not right.
Total 12:37 – DB10 airshot – hahahaha….. as if
Terry my man, I would love to talk about accounts but someone has put superglue on my tongue. 🙂
Of course, If I could say something, I think that those naughty accountants might be implying that, without the sale of players, there is an overwhelming truth in saying that, if we bought just one semi-decent player per year for £15m + salary of £4m p.a., we would have been making a loss of £15m + a year over the last two years, and into the future.
But to hell with nasty accountants, we need to get back to footie matters!
I was mortified to read that the Spuds might be selling Modric for £35m and buying Affellay for about £6m to replace him, and also buying Barndoor for £6m, having already bought Vertonghen.
Spuds Outgoings, if true, £35m minus £6m for Affellay, minus £6m for Barndoor, minus £9m for Vertonghen, they would have 3 good players and change of £14m for bloody Modric!! Arrghh!!!
6m for Barndoor is a joke and I’m sure has been arrived at to offset the fact that it allows totnum to pay him a huge signing on fee because his wages will be half what he was getting at city.
I hope we can employ the same strategy when it comes to negotiating deals over Chamakh, Vela and Denilson … its far preferable to letting their contracts run out.
Great comments here today. Thanks all.
On transfers:
Sky report Chelsea are in for MY Oscar.
Also, which club would pay £35m for Modric?
My thoughts too Rasper.
I think Denilson will eventually go for nothing. The other two? Who knows!
Rumoured to be money bags Real Madrid. Mickey.
RA, Wow!
Redders, Rasp, Totnumb do seem to cut some good deals but its not enough to overhaul North Londons finest. They will renew there more natural rivalry with West Ham next season…………and of course we will win the league. hahaha
😆 TMHT, you are incorrigible!
No Rasper, Glic told me he is very corrigible, or was it dirigible! 🙂
Mind, if Glic says terry is capable of being repaired, (corrigible) I assume it is his telescope he was talking about, and that may not be possible! 🙂
hey peoples, i have to agree 100% with LB @3.10pm
interesting to read a few quotes from our ex midfielder Ozyakup, stating that RvP would have him over for dinner at his home and tol him it was in his best interest to leave the club…hmm..
he will now be plying his trade for Besiktas in Turkey with a guarantee of first team football
i read it in ‘London 24’
loving the education ‘you guys’..keep it up 🙂
Raspers, much appreciated on the post and info..thanks
This is written by shard and well worth a read good people, given todays post.
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/22780
I don’t see that article as being relevant to today’s post. At no point did I or anyone at the AST meeting suggest Usmanov be offered a seat on the Board, only that there should be some dialogue between the club and a major shareholder.
Rasp thanks for the post i havent had time to read all comments…
For me the AST should concern itself with getting the best deals for us fans watching the game, make sure the club is there for our children to support. If they want more say then they should apply for jobs within the company and be heard. Maybe that is shortsighted or blinkered but in reality those are the two things I care most about.
I heard something on the radio today and it made me think about this article that claims to know the salaries of our players
http://forty-nine.co.uk/?p=836
It puts Cham on £60k a week, above Rasp puts it around £70k a week i guess accprding to sources at AST today. Well they discussed on the radio how Fiorentina are saying they can’t afford Chams wages and have let the cat out of the bag re the wages they need to match. The figure given was £40k a week.
Here’s the news.
Prade told SportItalia: “Have we made an offer for Chamakh? We have not made one because he earns three million euros (per season).”
That equates to £2.3m a year at today’s exchange. £44k per week.
Who is right?
This one from Untold about the van Persie statement is well worth a read as well.
http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/22803
I am going to add inverted commas to the words “van Persie’s statement”
They have some seriously irritating adds on that site.
Not wanting to score points but the forty-nine article says that Rosicky’s contract expires in 2012, but he was given a new deal in March this year so how much else is right/wrong in the article?
The van Persie statement claimed that Gazidis was on holiday out of the country but he wasn’t. There is an awful lot of disinformation being bandied around.
LB, just read your link. If RvP wasn’t responsible for or didn’t sanction the statement, surely he’d have come out and distanced himself from it by now?
GiE – you make a fair point about what the aims of the AST should be and I agree with you but I think the guys that are the movers and shakers have moved on from that ( although they are passionate about the Fanshare scheme) I think the concerns they have are grounded in the fact that they are themselves highly qualified in their fields and are frustrated that the club seems to lack ambition.
They are not about to go and support the spuds or any other team that they feel show more ambition they just want Arsenal to use their resources more wisely. They approve of the self-sustainability model but in their discussions with Gazidis they are looking to fire some enthusiasm to work things in our favour.
Rasp and I both thought that you would have really enjoyed the meeting last night.
Rasp perhaps I should have said comments and not post.
Nothing personally against anybody, but I have gradually stopped looking at the AST favourably. The first step in that was when they released that horribly ill timed statement in the aftermath of the Carling Cup final defeat. What does a last minute individual error have to do with the direction of the club? Not to mention we were still going for the league at that point. I know PHW is much derided, but I think it is unfair. He was absolutely correct to call that a silly statement anyway, and I thought people wanted statements without there being spin involved. Turns out, when they hear them, they react badly. Which is why Gazidis and others of course, all are spin merchants. It is safer, and turns out, actually what people want.
I don’t even remember what else there was, but I don’t trust the AST, and I do think they are more favourably inclined towards Usmanov than they let on.
No worries dandan. It was a good article but based on supposition. I don’t think Usmanov is the way ahead for Arsenal, we have to stick to the self-sustainabilty model but it doesn’t have to form a stranglehold and choke our ambition.
Oh dandan..Thanks for the mention 🙂
Hi Peaches I was a bit hit and run with the last comment.
In reality I would probably have enjoyed the meeting, I think one problem I have is that I don’t really want to be looking at the club’s finances and making them into an issue.
In truth I only started looking at them in detail when i started blogging here, if someone states a “fact” like the worlds most expensive tickets, or Nicklas Bendtner is on £100k a week i try to find the information that agrees or disagrees, or we have made £50m profit and we won’t spend it.
That reminds me i really need to finish that post!
Hi Shard, that was not the impression I got at the meeting. There were a lot of business people at the meeting but their membership does cover a much broader spectrum of supporter than was present last night.
Undoubtedly Arsenal is the thing they care about and everyone else be it owner, manager, CEO or players (ourselves included) are peripheral to what the club means to supporters.
It wasn’t a nudge GiE 🙂
Maybe they’ve just got bogged down with the nitty gritty, a bit like some of us – I include myself in that. When David Dein was around I just assumed he would deal with everything in Arsenal’s best interests, I didn’t question anything. I didn’t need to – except when Vieira was sold, then I was mad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rasp,
Fair enough. Of course my impression is not based on being there first hand. Which might explain the difference. I base my opinion on looking at their public statements, and certain other things people like Tim Payton and others say, in the media, on twitter etc. I was completely in support of the AST till the aforementioned incident. There have been very many other things which I felt was them laying the ground for opposition to the board and their practices. I don’t remember them now, and it’s ok. I don’t intend to attack the AST anyway. (Right now at least 🙂 ). But I maintain that my overall impression of them is that they are not completely trustworthy.
That nice Wright7 has just added a dressing room clip of Giroud in the raw on twitter.
Doesn’t pass the peachesmum test though so you’ll have to look yourselves 🙂
No problem Shard. There is always the possibility that when people think they are celebrities they lose their objectivity.
Tim Payton came across as a rather serious, modest type, not at all flambouyant or self serving. But I do know what you mean about that statement and at the time I questioned its credibility.
I am confident that the AST is run by and populated by people who really care about the club and the fact that IG takes them seriously does give them some sort of seal of approval.
Pedro from LG and The Armchair Gooner were also at the meeting and they represent 2 opposite ends of the blog world so it would appear that the AST tries to be all inclusive.
Peaches if you’re set for tomorrow I will have a bash at finishing it tomorrow afternoon/evening. I’ve had more of a think about the structure so needs a bit of tweaking.
GiE – we’re ok for the next three days, so work away, take your time 🙂
Just found a link to an interview Ozyakup gave to Turkish news on joining Besiktas.
I’m sad he has gone because I liked him as a player but I guess midfield is where we are congested already.
And after reading the interview I’m glad he has gone:
“My childhood dream was to play for Arsenal. Now I’m going to play for Beşiktaş, God must be helping me as I’m living my dream. First Arsenal, then Beşiktaş, in the future perhaps Barcelona.
“God willing I’ll prove myself here and attract interest from Barcelona. However, if I settle in and become successful here I could consider staying here for the remainder of my career.”
Barcelona …… FOOL!
http://www.turkish-football.com/news_read.php?id=3170
Looks like I’m going to have to purge on the Arsenal youngsters I follow on twitter who have now left.
Just seen the pictures of the lads in pre season training. The new season is upon us.Excitement levels rising. yeharrrr.
thanks for that rasp, very interesting. i don’t like jabba bet ther is the saying of better to have them in the tent pissing out than outside pissing in.
usmanov is not on the board of any of his companies so i wouldn’t imagine he wants a seat himself.
he put a lot of money into facebook. I wonder if he wanted a say in how that was run.
RVP is gone, Sky are just reporting the fact that he’s meeting Wenger (common knowledge) and twisted it to imply that it is contract negotiations.
I think he’s going to shitty as his wife and kids could stay in London.
i think rvp is a massive front bottom
Giroud has a very big dick!
Sorry Peaches 🙂
https://twitter.com/MickTheGooner/status/222820012681998336
Oh my god, Chris Coleman is thinking of getting Ryan Shawcross to play for Wales, and therefore be in the same team as Aaron Ramsey. I thought it had to be nonsense, because I remember Shawcross was in the England squad soon after he maimed Ramsey, but he didn’t get on the pitch, and was brought up in Wales, so apparently is eligible.
If I wee Ramsey, I know where I’d tell Coleman to stick it.
@RedArse10:07 Surely your last sentence is contradictory, its because the board and indeed Wenger don’t want to risk the clubs future that they are refusing to indulge in any strategy other than the self sustaining model. That the club is being run prudently is something we should all be greatful for. Wild speculation finally caught up with Leeds, and we are lucky the famous name of Leeds FC is still with us. They gambled on year on year profits much in the same way that our banking sector did, please remember the consequences of that speculation. It amazes me that even after seeing what happened to Rangers recently when they lived above their means that the “glory hunters” still continue to have the audacity to call for us to do likewise. We live in troubled times where a financial storm could rear its ugly head at any moment. Lets be thankful that we seem to have a sensible captain at the helm, with a first mate who knows where to find sheltered waters.
Whether or not the FFP rules work should not concern us. They have their basis in sound finacial managenent, therefore we should strive to live by them regardless of what others do.
All a bit over my head, Rasp.
From what I’ve seen of Tim Payton’s pronouncements he gives the impression he’s very negative about the club, LG stylee. I certainly wouldn’t want him speaking for me.
I’m sure the AST are far more representative of the Arsenal fan base than some suggest, it just doesn’t seem like that from the stuff that comes from them.
Worth a read, though again, a bit much for this thicko to absorb.
http://www.7amkickoff.com/2012/how-much-money-would-it-take-to-bring-arsenal-level-with-the-big-spenders/
Untold Arsenal has one main aim and that is to advertise and sell all the books Tony Attwood has written about Arsenal and is the most pro Arsenal site I have ever read going into the minutest of detail and conspiracy theories if Arsenal lose a game or a player. I would say a balaned view is never achieved on there.Facts often get in the way of many articles.
With regards to the meeting that Rasp attended I read that AST has eleven hundred members and 660 attended.How can one put any credence to a poll on various topics when that number of people represents a fraction of the total fan base ?
We have to face facts whichever way you look at the accounts or the worth of the club that as long as the board remain the same with Wenger basically doing a juggling act every year (which not many other managers could do) we will continue to sell to cover any new acqisitions.
My firm belied that the damage has been done with regards to RVP and he will go to City either by an agreed fee or he will put in a transfer request and Walcott will also be sold.
Morning Kelsey. If Walcott goes, do you think Wenger will use that money to buy another player?
Morning Kelsey (is 3am a good morning Chas or a goodnight?)
I agree about Walcott, though don’t know about Persie. A repeat performance of last years’ transfer performance and we could still see a want-a-away remain 😦
I do believe he will go though, and to City, maybe exchange. Persie’s speech certainly helps as it makes him look so bad and takes the pressure right off Arsenal.
Hi VCC,
Sorry, took me ages to write that…more coffee…much much more
Morning Micky…….I think Chas is burning the cAndle at both ends.
My fifty pounds bet on Arsenal is looking grimmer by the day. Seriously getting pissed off with the direction we keep taking, will it ever end?
Our main rivals must be rubbing their hands together.
VCC,
I don’t agree.
Let’s say RvP goes, and that money covers Pod and Giroud. I do think Walcott will go, and the money recycled. If we could offload the obvious and recycle that dosh as well, then with the right buys added to what we have then I seriously think we could challenge. A key part of new aquistions would be attitude.
Morning all.
VCC if an offer of £150k a week was tabled what else could the negotiating team do?
Likely it would have been a three/four year deal. Having a 32 year old on £150k a week, especially someone with Robins injury history does not seem best use of funds.
Kelsey I share similar concerns about the AST membership numbers and subsequent use of them as a barometer to gauge Arsenal fans opinion, but I guess it’s all the media has. An independent survey of the 100,000 club members (red, silver and gold) would be far more representative.
Unfortunately until commercial deals can be improved we have to accept the issue you raise in the final para of your 6:46am.
I think you made a point yesterday that CL qualification was necessary to get better deals
Liverpool have agreed a £25m a year deal with Warrior (6 year deal) rising to £50m for on field performance.
Spurs deal with Under Armour is believed to be anywhere from £10m-£50m a year.
Our current deal with Nike is worth £6.5-8m a year, thank goodness it expires in 2014 as the extra £20m on the profit would go some way to putting the footballing profit on a better level. And as proven above those numbers are viable even without CL football.
Morning Guys, 🙂
Kelsey, not sure what point you are making when you say you don’t understand what credence can be given to a poll carried out on 660 individuals.
Are you suggesting it was not worth doing?
What about the occasional poll carried out on AA? Not worth doing? Is that your point, or perhaps that we don’t realize it is unrepresentative? 🙂
What a spoilsport — and I do so enjoy doing them! 🙄
Even the sponsorship numbers are ridiculous.
Standard Chartered pay Liverpool £20m per year, the Emirates kit deal was part of the stadium naming rights, the stadium name is set until 2020/21, but the kit expires in 2014 also the deal currently is worth £5.5m per season, Spuds earn £12.5m per season from their sponsorship deals.
I understand why all these deals were struck in the first place and why they were so long, but thankfully we are now nearing the end of the desperate austerity measures needed, adding £35m to profit would replace the need to sell every year.
GIE,
Your comment “Spurs deal with Under Armour is believed to be anywhere from £10m-£50m a year” makes me think that falls under the heading ‘spurious accuracy’, whatever its source. 🙂
Unfortunately a lot of the surmise going on at the moment is just as ‘accurate’ and causes so much angst among many other Gooners that it should come with a health warning, like on a packet of cigarettes.
GiE,
Great info. Things can only get better…a whole lot better 🙂
Hopefully, by 2020/1, we’ll be so damn rich we won’t have to flog the Stadium name. The Armoury it shall be.
Talking of Stadium, how much do we repay each year and what’s the timescale?
RA,
I earn £20-£20m per annum. All depends on who I am speaking to 🙂
RA the Beeb quoted £10m and the Mail quoted up to £50m my guess is the £50m is if they win the quadruple. But to be honest even if it’s £10m it’s better than ours and would be the lowest end of deals negotiated with the bigger clubs. Although Spuds are most certainly not a big club :)9
The Warrior deal comes straight from the horses mouth at Liverpool, although they are saying it will be worth £300m I guess that’s with CL quali and a few pots along way.
Adebayor apparently told his Spud teammates he was on £210k a week (that is believe to be with image rights) the figure most accept is £170k a week, that’s still a large chunk of wages that is going to blow the Spud wage structure clean out of the water.
Jeepers creepers GiE, Spurs paying him/anyone £170k per week!!!
Kelsey,
My view on Untold Arsenal is a little different. The conspiracy theories term is something that bugs me. It exhibits a lack of open mindedness to examine the issue without previous bias. Sure, it’s easy to decry something which isn’t proven, and proof of which lies beyond reach as a conspiracy theory. The fact remains that you don’t have to accept that as true. But knowing the possibility of such a thing existing is important. And someone saying it requires courage, knowing that most likely they’ll just be branded as nuts wearing tin foil hats. As for the pro-Arsenal stuff. Well yes. they are. But they proclaim their bias out in the open. And proceed to debate from there. That doesn’t make them close minded. That makes them honest about where they are coming from.
Morning all. RA taking a poll from 660 activists interested enough to pay a monthly fee to belong to AST. Then extrapolating that result as reflecting the view of the entire Arsenal fan base is hardly watertight or joined up thinking is it.
As for the polls on here they represent the views of AA’ers and the culture of the site, given that the same vote on other bloggs would in many instances probably produce a different result.
Just look at the result that trade union Ballots produce and the number of members that actually vote and the disproportionate effect of activist can be clearly seen.
Of course such polls are fine to fire up discussion but should not IMHO taken any more seriously than a Sun headline
The remaining stadium debt is long Micky, looking at the accounts and doing a quick read and calc we still owe about £220m and we pay about £5-6m a year, but most of these are fixed rate bonds so we know 5% interest. Plus the floating rate comes with a rate depending on LIBOR but the club play with interest rate swaps to reduce this.
Most of the bonds are secured on the stadium and other assets but there is also a charge of £59.5m on our bank balance. So whenever someone says “but we have £100m in the bank” they need to subtract the £59.5 before they start spending it.
Mickey your 8;05 Love it but it is a shame you lag behind me. 🙂
Morning peeps
Does anyone know whether the Ems capacity can be increased ?
By the way the interest is £11m on the above, the income jump from moving to the Emirates (Matchday only) was around £60m.
Problem is wages have also doubled through the oligarch/sheikh doping.
dandan,
Honoured to lag behind you 🙂
GiE,
Bloody hell, we only repay £5-6m a year!!!
There really isn’t much money in running even a top footballing institution is there
Simples GLIC….Yes, but we need the UK government to sanction safe standing as seen in the Budesliga.
Dortmund put an extra 15k bodies in ground when they are allowed to use it.
I am not sure that our bowl design would allow it but I would love to see North Bank and Clock End lower recalibrated to allow it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westfalenstadion Dortmunds stadium
http://www.fsf.org.uk/campaigns/safestanding.php FSF safe standing
I guess they could also make the seats smaller Everton charge £35 for a restricted view seat that I can just about get one cheek on.
My comment disappeared 🙂
Anyway RVP to City makes sense.he would play 25/+ games a season as they can rotate their forward line more than any club.
dandan has answered my pont RA.
Shard,
I respect your point of view but still stand by what I say.
Spurs last staff wage bill was 40 million less than ours in the accounts so how they can afford Ade the reported sum and also seem to be first in line for lloris, amazes me.
AVB and Redknapp are lke chalk and cheese and just when Spurs seem to be progressing they shoot themselves in the foot yet again.I expect levy wants quick results otherwise yet another manager gets fired.
Stadium debt at present i believe is 190 million
glic,
I seem to remember that when the planning permission was granted, there was scope for expanding to 80k capacity, depending on some upgrades on the public transport system. I’m not sure about this, but that’s what I remember.
Micky,
There really isn’t. Which is why I’m even more suspicious about people wanting to buy clubs and throw their money at them. It doesn’t make business sense, and other interests, even if they love the game, tend to take a backseat to money in the long run. Nobody likes losing money. Least of all rich people. They get rich by wanting more and more money in the first place.
Hi glic,
No it can’t. Islington council put a ceiling of 60000 for Health and Safety.
Micky there’d be more if that damn recession hadn’t hit!
GiE,
You have the solution. Two different width seats. Wide Boys £60, Undernourished £30
Damn Health & Safety!!
I would guess that any stadium capacity increase would be coupled with more transport infrastructure improvements, and they were costly enough as it was anyway.
Hmmm I don’t want to pay £60 a ticket….diet time!
Shard,
“They get rich by wanting more and more money in the first place.” Cannot agree with that. I only know two people who have made major money, and neither was motivated by money.
My “yikes” point over the Stadium debt repayments, was more in line with the thinking that even if we sugardaddied-up and paid it off, we would not be that much better off in terms of cash flow.
Thanks guys
The bit I dont understand is the upgrading of the transport system bit ( if that was the case for any increase ) as I remember being at Highbury with a crowd of about 70,000 beating the spuds 4-0 in the late 60`s, hasn`t transport got better since then ?. 🙂
On capacity
I was sitting at a game with Big Raddy, and having the same conversation. I was saying how much I hated the distance between goal ends and fans from an atmosphere point of view as well as capacity, but how to fill it and retain views. Clever Raddy:” Simple, lower the pitch”.
Sugar daddies will not just pay off the stadium debt though mickey right? The public will demand more..
About the wanting to make more and more money. How rich are people you know. Yes, people can and do make serious money by doing something they love. Hell, footballers do this. They love the game. Obviously. Or else they wouldnt get where they are. And they make millions. Some of them, then lose track of why they played teh game, and want more money. Aren’t football wages spiralling because of ever increasing wage demands? Billionares are that on a completely different scale. They can still enjoy what they do. But if money isn’t important to them, they don;t become billionaires. Nobody throws money away. The pleasure that gives also diminishes in time.
Or has the only thing that`s got better since then is our dominance over the spuds !. Mwahahahaha
I shouln`t mention dominance incase Terry`s about !. 🙂
They never have sorted out Holloway Road. Still closed for an hour after final whistle.
Kelsey/Dandan,
It seems my attempt at early morning humour has achieved a heavy weight response.
If you go back and read what I said, I was not making any statements, I was gently asking Kelsey questions because he often complains that no one responds to him.
Still you live and learn.
For what it is worth I have no idea what the AST poll was about, or what the ‘results’ were, and if I had read them I would have forgotten them 10 minutes later. What’s the big deal?
Glic,
Have you just got home from a night’s roustabout, or are you off to visit an old wall? 🙂
Ade will not be earning £170k a week with totnum. He will be getting a wacking great signing on fee (probably 5m +) to compensate for the lower wages he’ll receive.
There is absolutely no point in paying off the stadium debt as the mortgage is easily affordable and the penalties for early repayment are high because we negotiated a set interest rate (about 5% I think) to ensure that we wouldn’t be crucified by a sudden hike in rates. The net figure we would gain by paying off the debt is about £18m which is peanuts set against the figure required.
No-one should concern themselves with the stadium debt, its easily manageable and doesn’t have much to do with investment in the team.
Shard
i could completely destroy most of our point but it is too long to answer and it desreves more time which I haven’t got at the moment.
The AST poll was a poll of their members to see what their members felt about a range of topics. It was never presented as an all encompassing view of supporters in general.
Most organisations sample the views of their members in order to ensure they are representing them accurately – its normal business practise.
Redders 🙂
I finished the great wall of Cornwall and yesterday completed the 11 railway sleeper steps down to it, like me , it looks effing lovely !. 🙂
Shard,
We won’t agree. Billionnaires are not all the same, and dont necessarily share the same motivation. Some have boats the size of an island, some like Warren Buffet live in houses that an average footballer would be ashamed of.
Money is definately not always the motivation of the very wealthy.
Don’t get touchy RA 🙂 that’s my perogrative.
I think we should all lighten up on here and get back to the way AA used to be. We can discuss the finances until the cows come home and just keep going round in circles.
The era when phrases like ‘burdoned by the expense of building the Emirates’ could be rolled out is over.
We’ve done the hard part (and it turned out much harder than predicted due to the downturn in the economy). We’ve built the training ground and the stadium, we just have to find a way of competing with the super rich clubs now within a self sustainable business model … that’s the only choice we have as long as Kroenke owns the club.
kelsey
Anytime you feel like it.
Right it`s cartoons and play time, It`s grandaughter day, Scooby Doo, where are you !.
I mentioned about 6 months ago that when FFP and the Home Grown rules started to bite in the Premier League, another Toy Boy avenue would open up.
The oligarch appetite for Premier League clubs has become satiated in large part, and now clubs from the lower divisions/echelons are becoming ‘prey’, and not just in the UK.
Forest are the latest club to be bought by rich men, following on from the acquisition of Reading, Southampton and Malaga in Spain. There will be others.
The FFP rules do not apply to those clubs yet, so big bucks can be poured into them for players getting better quality and blasting them up the leagues.
You cannot rationalize the mind set of men with too much money for their or anyone else’s good, but I can imagine one of them boasting in some not too distant future, “Well, I took x from the 3rd division right the way up to the top of the Premiership and into the European Champions League. Aren’t I clever?”.
Sad really!
Kelsey,
It’s all very well you telling people on here to “lighten up”, but spare a thought for any fatties out there 🙂
Before you go Glicster, a swift reckoning up shows me that Terry owes me a pint, and your railway sleepers comment was definitely a subliminal invite to visit you in Cornwall.
Soon as I am on top of things I will be down. Now where can I find your address??????? 🙂
Hi RA, would you prefer an American franchise system with pay capping and no relegation/promotion? That system basically protects the investment of the owner and it more or less becomes a cartel. I wonder if it you can say with your experience of US sport whether it also dimishes the excitement and competitiveness.
Kelsey, my dear,
I think the shoe might be on the other foot – whatever that means — I am never touchy with you, and will not be in the future. 🙂
Fear not — I will put even more smiley faces on my comments to signal intent!! 🙂
Mickey,
yes, like it isn’t for some, maybe even most footballers. Yet, I maintain. Nobody throws money away. Nobody. No matter how rich. Money can give them the freedom to do what they enjoy. Piling money into a football club might be something they enjoy. But even if true, that enjoyment eventually dies out, or the bank empties enough to make it die out, or billionaires themselves die, and their heirs don;t share the same interest. Why I stop at the first stage, is because I’m a cynic. I believe most billionaires are cutthroat enough to find ways to make money which aren’t obvious to the rest of us. There are plenty of cases of money laundering in and around football, and football is poorly regulated enough, for me to think that MOST billionaires will have that as their primary motivation, rather than the game itself. As such, I generalised, and said all billionaires. I guess that is untrue, or likely to be. So I admit I was wrong about that.
Rasp: Most of them don’t get quoted in the Red Tops as fact, I was not blaming RA and am sorry he feels aggrieved, but making the point that it was just their view. Would agree that organisations poll their staff and they too are all inclusive, something that unfortunately cannot be done with a disparate motley crew like us Arsenal Fans.
Red Arse. here is GLiC’s addy. I have been there several times, he is very welcoming
Mr. Fruitcake
Letsby Avenue
Stopatome,
Cornwall.
Take the beers cos he’s a bit tight..
Kelsey you getting at me? Fatties indeed 🙂
Didn’t Sam Hamman already do the catapult through the divisions? And Mr Al Fayed come to think of it.
Point taken dandan. I’m not a member of the AST, they let me in as a guest so I have no axe to grind.
It is true that if anyone expresses an opinion you do not agree with (by you, I mean anyone), you are likely to look for reasons to devalue that opinion.
I am quite happy to admit that my mind can be changed by listening to others and one thing that the meeting did for me was to revise my view of Ivan Gazidis.
Top man Shard.
All smileys 🙂
Brace yourselves, we have another mind boggling offering from the keyboard of fergalburger…..
…. New post ………
Agree with DD here it’s not the poll that I have issue with it is it’s use by the red tops and the like as a measure of popular opinion amongst Arsenal fans.
Remember how the black bin bag protest was going to happen…..and how it was a new dawn, or the Black Scarf Movement (WWOAB). Turns out a large majority laughed it off. Didn’t stop the Red Tops reporting the “broken cannon”
Hi Rasper, 🙂
I would be very much opposed to the franchise system being imported to the UK, as transposing another culture just would not be right. The English system has developed over more than 100 years and is a tradition I much admire.
You are right, the franchise system is primarily for the protection of the owners, and profits are the name of their game. They can ‘buy in’ or transfer out the whole club as market conditions or personal whims dictate, with the whole club moving to another State or city, and sod the fans.
I have said previously that I am seriously smitten by an NFL team and an MLB team and have been since childhood, but I can honestly say that I do not give a stuff about the current or past owners of the franchises.
That is why I have been so intrigued by many football fans over here, in the case of the Arsenal ownership, with some choosing ‘sides’, —- “I trust kroenke more that Jabba” — “I prefer Usmanov because he is not so tight with his money” and so on.
Believe me, neither care a fig what the fans think. The next time money is needed (because FFP prevents ‘outside money’) the fans will feel the squeeze when the season ticket prices are increased.
Let’s face it, they know we are a captive audience, and hardly likely to go and support Fulham because it is cheaper, or give up football watching — and if anyone did, there is a waiting list of 40,000 to soon take their places.
Too wordy???? 🙂
Thanks RA, that’s what I’d hoped you would say 😛
@Shard 08.42 The issue at the time was communicated to all of us that live locally by Islington council. The 60K cap on the ground wasn’t (for once) the doing of health and safety. Islington council said we could have 100K if we wanted but only if the tube station at Holloway Road (now days our nearest) was massively re-developed to cope with a 100K crowd. Arsenal looked into it very strongly but unfortunately Holloway Rd station is one of the very oldest types of tube stations around which is why its closed on match days. Its deep and accessible only by lift. The feasibility study said it would’ve almost doubled the costs of the Emirates and so was shelved. I actually saw the planned model which must still be available on-line-somewhere the station and the ground were as one. After seeing the plans and viewing the scaled model I was convinced they were the only way forward but I think the board must’ve taken into account the glory hunters. Just imagine how far away we’d be if the Emirates had cost double? The board taking into account “The glory hunters” was obviously said tongue in cheek.